107: 5 Steps to Create Safety, Intimacy & Depth in Your Relationships | Adam Hudson

We cannot have true safety, intimacy, and depth without hard conversations.

Yet many of us struggle to know how to have a hard conversation and, when we try, it just seems to make things worse rather than better.

So what's the point then?

The point is this: “The quality of your relationships determines the quality of your life.” - Esther Perel

The quality of how you communicate determines the quality of your relationships.

If your relationship is not where you want it to be, there is a high chance some issues are being swept under the rug in favour of "peace."

It's time to learn how to have hard conversations so that you can not only cultivate a deeper sense of safety and stability within your relationship, but also within yourself.

Not coincidentally, this is a big component of healing from chronic skin picking, hair pulling, and nail biting too!

Here's what we cover in this episode:

🌟The 3 styles of couples when it comes to conflict 
🌟5 steps to resolve conflict and bring you and your partner closer together 
🌟Learn how to move beyond the biggest barriers in having hard conversations - your loved one's reactions
🌟Compatibility Dealbreakers - Read the signs of a relationship that simply won't work 

💌Book your FREE BFPA* Roadmapping Call with me

🌟Download your FREE Guide to Stop Skin Picking Using Somatics

📝FREE Holistic Skin Picking & Hair Pulling Assessment - Join the waitlist

🎯Join the 7-Day Skin Picking Recovery Challenge

🙋‍♀️Send me a message here

My name is Raffaela Marie. I'm a holistic BFRB coach who has healed from 15 years of chronic skin picking myself and dedicated my life to helping driven women do the same. Through my podcast, free resources, and programs, I teach strategies to overcome urges, build emotional safety, and expand into authenticity. My approach goes beyond quick fixes, focusing on root causes and long-term recovery.

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:00

I think it goes so far beyond what people say is you've got to communicate better. I th I think so many people say that, but there's nothing behind that. There's no tools. Like, okay, so do I have to say it louder? Do I have to say it more? Do it what does that mean? And I think bringing it back to something like this actually gives you a tool that you can use beyond the you've got to communicate better. And just watch your relationship change and grow as you you both do in your skills at having conversations.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

This is episode 107 of Beyond Skin Picking and Hair Pulling, the Place to Be. If you want to learn how to address the root cause of why you pick, pull, or bite at your body so that you can heal from the inside out. My name is Raphaela Marie. I'm your host. I've healed from 15 years of chronic skin picking through a science-based and holistic approach. I'm now a coach who helps others like you to heal like I did. And on this podcast, I share with you everything I know. Today I have a very special guest on, Adam Hudson. You might remember him from last year. He's been on the podcast before. We are diving into how to have hard conversations, the five steps to have hard conversations so you can create more safety, intimacy, and depth in your relationships. This is for you if conflict just doesn't seem to work in your relationship. If it seems like it's easier to leave things unaddressed than to address them. If the idea of coming to your partner about something that you think might upset them makes you really nervous. If when you get into triggered arguments with your partner, you feel like you lose control. You both lose control and end up causing more hurt to each other. This is the episode for you. Not only is learning how to have hard conversations the way, the pathway to creating more intimacy and stability and safety inside your relationships, it is also such an important part of healing from chronic skin picking and hair pulling and nail biting. Because how do we feel in our relationships when we know there's something we're not okay with? When there's something on our hearts that we really want to talk about, but we're not doing it. It causes tension and stress and anxiety. And where do we get a break from that? Where do we let that out? On our skin or our hair or our nails. The better you get at having hard conversations, the more safety and stability you will start to cultivate within yourself. We're not only going to cover these five steps, Adam also talks about the three different styles of couples when it comes to conflict. And I'm curious which one you resonate with most. You'll learn how to move beyond the biggest barriers in having hard conversations, your partner's reaction. And we discuss compatibility deal breakers. How to read the signs of a relationship that simply won't work. Adam Hudson is an empowerment and relationship coach. He has helped hundreds of women heal attachment wounds, rebuild self-trust, and create secure, connected love. And the reason why he is so effective is he doesn't just approach from theory, he approaches from lived experience. He has been married for 19 years to the love of his life, Kate, who you will hear about in this episode. And it's Adam's own journey of navigating intimacy, growth, and connection that allows him to truly come from his heart when he discusses and supports people through these topics. If having hard conversations in your relationship just seems to make things worse rather than better, then this is the episode for you. You're gonna hear me say this so many times throughout this interview, but this process has entirely changed my relationship and has had such an incredible and wholesome ripple effect throughout the rest of my life. And real quick, if you appreciate the work that I do here, don't forget to hit like and subscribe. Leave a comment as well about what stood out to in this episode. So happy you're here. Let's get into it. What is a hard conversation? What specifically makes it so hard?

SPEAKER_06 3:36

I think for for people that I've worked with, and in my experience of being able to do it as well, there's there's two different frames you're looking at. One of them is the vulnerability of you bringing something up with your partner, and there's like a whole um universe of things that that can mean and lead to and and everything else, and we can go into some of those as well. Um, but then also I think there's the other side of it, which is the what if they don't believe me, what if they don't hear me, what if they don't listen to me, what if they don't think the same? What if this is the last fight that we ever have? Because this is the this is it, depending on your relationship and and where you're at and what your style has been so far in terms of how well you fight, how well you make up the things that you fight over, and and what those fights tend to lead to. It can be incredibly difficult for both sides of the of the relationship, but you don't make progress in relationships without conflict. It has to be there. So it's a necessary step, but people just don't know how to do it well.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I mean that's a really scary thing about these hard conversations. And really, I think what we're talking about are the kind of conversations where you're afraid it might ruin the relationship. Or it's essentially going to maybe you've tried to have conversations of the past or the same problem has come up in the past, and you just get nowhere and it just causes this big explosion. And you kind of sweep it under the rug and hope, well, that's just too hard and too confusing and brings up so much hurt and seems to make things worse if we try and talk about it, then actually moving forward and getting better.

SPEAKER_06 5:18

For sure. For sure. And when I talk about like your the the patterns in your relationship and how it's gone so far, I tend to find that there's kind of three different styles of couples. There is a style where one couple, uh one of the couple wants to talk about everything and the other one really doesn't want to, so they get really fired up and this person shies away. There's couples where whenever anything gets brought up, they both just go at each other and kind of give and take equally and blow up, and it gets really explosive and really exciting, even because there's a big rush that goes with it, but then they separate because, and I don't mean separate, separate. I mean just they come away from that argument feeling like they just went at each other's throats. But then I think there's an even more dangerous one that I see, and I work with a lot of these couples too, and individuals, is where they both know that there's a problem and neither of them ever say anything about it. And it's like a slow and painful distance that builds between them. Like they're the three kind of general themes that you see with people in relationships. And I really do think that that last one is the hardest one because both people, both people or one person could be really taken by surprise about the fact that that's even there in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Yeah, that's really interesting. I definitely resonate with the first one.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I gotta say though, through having hard conversations, my husband and I have come so, so incredibly far in our relationship. And I think you have helped me have really, really hard conversations in my relationship. Like really hard conversations. And it's genuinely a skill. It's not just like you, you're not just born with this skill. It's something you need to learn. It's, I feel like it's it's it's like learning a new language. And if you get raised in an environment where hard conversations are had, you will learn those skills probably a bit more naturally, like kids do. You'll absorb it, you'll see your parents having those hard conversations and you'll learn from observing them. They'll also teach you how to have that with them as kids growing up. So then you kind of like grow up learning that language more probably intuitively. I don't know if that's the right word, but if you don't, and I think most people haven't had this, or a lot of people haven't had this, where you don't grow up in an environment that shows you how to have those kind of conversations, you don't learn those skills, then you gotta learn a whole new language as an adult. And that is hard and it takes time. And just like when I mean anyone who's learnt a second language, unless you're these unique people like my husband, who seem to just have no fear around speaking a different language. But most people feel a bit like, oh, I don't want to say something dumb, I don't want to say the wrong thing. I'm really struggling to find the words. I was so afraid to speak German for the first year I moved over here. Because like, man, I can't just can't say what I want to say. It's so hard. And then it's I can see Deutsch. Yeah. Hey, not a little bit of German. Maybe and there's just I felt that as well in the beginning, I have so much fear and having this conversation because what if I it goes wrong? What if I don't get it right? What if I do my best and it still ends up like a fucking mess? And all of those things happened. Of course, multiple times. Yeah. Yeah. But through learning those skills and going through those things with you, just in our one-on-one sessions, applying that to my relationship, having the support from you as well in having those hard conversations, it has completely and utterly changed our relationship. Completely.

unknown 9:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

And amazing. Yeah. So this is also just to say how powerful and real the work that you do is and how effective it is. And also the five steps that we're going to go through in this interview are genuine, they really do work.

SPEAKER_06 9:22

Yeah, absolutely. They really they really do. And uh, like you said, it's a skill. So once you learn a skill and you practice that skill and you keep on doing it, you'll naturally get better at it. But of course, everybody has to suck at it really badly before they do. But then, you know, you're asking people to one suck at it, but two, suck at it while sharing their vulnerability with their partner. And it's like a double whammy. It's like, oh my god, really? You're asking me to have that conversation and I'm not even good at it yet. Well, it's really tough. And again, depending on your relationship history with your partner, you know, there's there's couples who fight all the time and never resolve things and just don't know how to do it. And if you're constantly getting shouted down, or if you're constantly walking away frustrated, or if your partner you know throws their hands up and says, they're done, this is it, every time you know you have a disagreement, then it adds all of these layers to it. But I think that when it comes down to having a method or a system or a framework or whatever you want to call it, some steps, I think it takes away a lot of the fear of it because you're not just someone who's trying to figure this out on your own and get through it and do what you've done before and do what you've heard before. But I mean, it actually comes from a world-renowned relationship institute, which is incredible. So it's tried and tested through multiple modalities of coaching and therapy and counseling and psychology as well. So I think it it really helps to give people some confidence that if they can approach it the right way, then all they have to work on is this is what they bring to that conversation rather than stressing about having it in the first place and it going pear-shaped or not knowing what to say or where to go with it.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah. Yeah. And I think having that system and structure, if you follow it, it does, it's kind of like, well, at least if I follow this system and structure, I know I've done the right thing. I know I've done my best. No matter what comes back at you, you know, okay, but this is the quote unquote right way to do this. And I haven't done anything wrong. As long as you're like, you know, it's really putting in the effort to keep yourself grounded and not get reactive and start playing into that same pattern, of course. But it's recognizing I did nothing wrong in approaching this conversation in this way. And I think that's what really helped me in the beginning is and also having reassurance from you, it was like, no, no, that's totally fair. That's reasonable, that's not unreasonable.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

And that kind of, I think there's so much uncertainty in it for people of like, I feel like I'm doing the wrong thing because I've upset this person. And it's like, no, you're going to upset each other. I think that's relationships.

SPEAKER_06 12:06

I think too, if if I can just add to that as well, the other really good thing about the framework is that, yeah, we talked about practice and rehearsal and getting better at things the more you do it. If you don't have some kind of idea of how a good conversation should look anyway, because you didn't have it modeled by your parents and all the stuff you watch on Instagram is all the, you know, the the douchebags you see on there now, chatting up girls and the boss babes who don't need no man. Like, if you're taking your advice from all of those people and that's what you're looking at is a idea of what's good, how do you ever know if you've gotten better? Like, what's what's the measurement to say, well, at least we didn't break up in this conversation, so this got better, or at least he kind of listened to me for a couple of minutes before he slammed the door and walked away and got in his car and drove away, or or before she screamed at me and threw something at me and you know, locked me out of the bedroom or whatever. I think if you've got some kind of idea of how it should go, then you've got some measurement to say, are we getting better at this? Or are we still just kind of dodging landmines and trying to figure out what works? And our tick is now we didn't break up and we didn't kill each other, which is a pretty low bar. But I mean, I talk to people who have those kind of conversations with their partners all the time. Because conflict is really, really normal in relationships. Conflict should be there. It's healthy, it's normal, it's okay. But being able to have it with respect and being able to have it with your partner, to understand their perspective and understand your perspective and to work through that together is a genuine skill, like you're talking.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

That is such a good point. And I'm really glad you brought that up because there is that if you don't know how to measure improvement in that area, which you wouldn't if you don't have any example or any picture in your mind of how it should be or what it could be like, then yeah, there's a lot of lot of there's so much bad advice online. So much bad advice coming from people that don't know how to have hard conversations and are bitter and angry. And then they make a whole philosophy around that that just keeps them stuck and anyone stuck who resonates with that. And we all can resonate with it because we've all been bitter and angry and hurt by people by others before. And actually, just before we go into the five steps, my husband and I were reflecting on this actually last night. We were saying how far we've come and how wild it is to think of how we used to handle conflict, how we used to have this big explosion, then the dust would settle, and we just kind of wouldn't really talk about it much. There'd be a little bit of like, oh yeah, everything's good now. And then we just it would kind of just get swept under the rug. And we were having, for a time, we were having explosive fights every single week. And looking back, we were like, of course we were. Oh my god. How how could we not have? And now from where we're where we are now, we look back on that and think, how do we how do we live our lives like that? That's so hard, that sucks.

SPEAKER_06 15:09

Yeah, it's a lot of dust to be swept under a rug, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Yeah. And I think this is just really important to acknowledge because I know this is so hard. It's so hard to have these conversations, and it can feel like, well, it just feels too big and too hard, so I'm not gonna do it. Yeah, I'm gonna find other ways. Surely there's another way I can do this. Maybe I can try be nicer, I can try be gentler, I can try be softer. And I gotta say, I think this is especially for women who tend to make themselves smaller. At some point, you just need to get really direct. And you need to learn how to do that in a healthy way. Not in a screaming in your face, like now I'm just gonna give it all back to you, kind of way, because that just that doesn't work. But you gotta learn how to stand up for yourself and be direct.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Yeah. And I agree.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

I noticed for myself that just simplify things a lot. I used to need a lot of words to get my point across.

SPEAKER_04 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Because I was so scared. I was trying to soften and embellish and just make things nicer and easier to dig to digest and easier to take to try not to trigger or cause a bad argument. And it didn't work. It doesn't work. Sometimes, sometimes you can deliver a gentle, kind message, but if there is a pattern that keeps popping up that's really hard to deal with, then you just sometimes need to be direct and say things without trying to make it nice and let it be hurtful because maybe it just is what's happening is just hurtful, and that's just the truth. Not protecting or softening the truth.

SPEAKER_04 16:59

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:01

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

And and now I think we've kept the people waiting long enough. Could you please share these five steps?

SPEAKER_06 17:13

So, first of all, it's not my method at all. It's not something that I've made up, but it comes from um the Gottman Institute, which is one of the leading worldwide relationship institutes. So, again, tried and tested and used across multiple um methodologies out there. Very, very commonly taught through their courses, through their school, uh, and through their leadership, which is fantastic. But it's called the Raven method. So I'll give you the overview first. It's it's it's five steps. Um, and it's starting with regulating yourself, assuming positive intent, validating their experience of what's going on, expressing your needs, and then negotiating an outcome. So that's kind of what it looks like end-to-end. It's got a nice little acronym as well, which is always beautiful because people can remember it. They're like, what's that next step? Especially when you're feeling a bit wound up or you're you're mid-argument, you're like, what do we do next? Uh, but I've literally given this as a worksheet to couples and said, pull out this worksheet and say, okay, this is how we're gonna fight now. This is how we're gonna argue now. Because some people really need that, and sometimes both uh both parties in a relationship are up for that. They're like, we've got to work on this, otherwise we're just gonna kill each other or separate. We don't want to do that because we love each other, but we just fight like cats and dogs all the time. So the first step of that, of course, is to regulate. And I think in any conflict, in any methodology that anybody gives you, it's always gonna be the most important step. Because if you come into a disagreement, a challenge, you get triggered by something, and you immediately lose control of your nervous system, it's a really hard place to have any compassion from. It's a hard place to talk about what's really going on for you, it's a hard place to share vulnerability from, and it's a hard place for your uh for your partner to receive from as well. So the first step is to regulate, take some deep breaths, calm down, walk away from it if you need to and say, Hey, I need a couple of minutes to think about this, or this is a really big topic for me. Can we like come back in 10 minutes or 20 minutes or whatever it is, but give it time, of course, not just I'm not having this conversation right now and walk away. Um, but show your partner the respect to be able to do that. And of course, I'll just put the caveat that when we're talking about these sorts of frameworks and conversations, we're assuming that these are relatively healthy relationships where people are just bickering, they're not domestic violence situations or any sort of stuff like that. I try to make sure we're clear on that. Um, so you regulate, you get yourself into the right state to be able to have a hard conversation in the first place. And it's gonna make it so much easier for you to articulate and and talk about what's going on, but it also puts your partner in a state where they're able to receive what's going on without that immediate, here we go, he's angry again, here we go, she's shitty again. And the wall goes up and you kind of shut down and you just want him to stop talking, so you can tell them all the things that they did wrong. It really puts them into a position to be able to hear what's going on for you.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah, that is so understand how that is the most important step. Because if you don't do that, then nothing good can come out of the conversation. And I think this is what I'm seeing is this is the difference between being an adult and being a child being a child. Because being an adult, you can take care of your own feelings. It doesn't mean that you then can't co-regulate with your partner. But when when we're in those activated states, super triggered and just trying to be heard and just trying to shut the other person up, we're essentially in a childish state of I need how I feel and what I need is the most important thing right now. And I can't take care of myself. I need you to take care of me so I can feel better. And that is a child. Children can't do that for themselves, they need an adult to help them. And in that moment, it really doesn't matter how the adult feels because a child can't help themselves. But as adults, we can. And that's kind of like the first step of take care of yourself so that you can then also take care of your partner and yourself at the same time.

SPEAKER_06 21:30

Absolutely. And also to add to that, take responsibility for your feelings and for your state and for the fact that you're not just showing up for you, you're there for your partner as well. You know, this is something that you're both in together, and presumably you're both there to fix it together. So show your partner that you respect, and they're likely to return that as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, absolutely. And I also got to say for myself, this has been a big game changer. When you do uh do allow yourself to actually calm down and And process that intensity that you're probably feeling that's not allowing you to really listen to what your partner is saying, then firstly you feel a bit better in yourself. But then you are actually able to acknowledge what the other person is saying as well.

SPEAKER_04 22:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

And that's when the real conversation can start having, uh can start happening. It's just it's night and day the difference.

SPEAKER_06 22:30

Yeah, it's a real game changer. The next step for me when I learned this was something I immediately implemented into my coaching and my work I do with clients, but also the work I do in my own marriage and relationship. You know, we're 25 years together and 20 years married this year. And if we haven't fought over anything and everything you could possibly fight about your entire life, I don't know what's left on the table. I'll have to start making some stuff up. Um but uh but A is um assume positive intention of your partner. And I think just that alone can make an enormous difference in the way that people approach conflict with their partner. I think the immediate feeling for most people when it comes to conflict, especially if they're not used to it or if they're not good at it in particular, is they get angry or upset or triggered by something. And immediately whoever's done that to them is the enemy. And it's usually the people closest to us, right? That we give the like the full force of how we're feeling too. We don't do that to strangers, we tend to do it to the people who we love and care about because we know we can get away with that shit. Um, so we tend to just we we really go hard on people. But if we take a step back from that and we assume that our partner has done it accidentally, doesn't know, didn't mean that tone to be that way, or was actually doing something that they thought was generally helpful or nice or appropriate. If we can assume that they have our best interests at heart when they're doing the things that they do that are driving us crazy, it completely changes the frame and the way that you feel about it because it goes from being like they're the enemy and I've got to win, and my ego comes up, and now it's like a fight to make sure that I win this. It comes from that to the space. I think we've talked about it before, that it's always you and your partner versus the problem, not you versus your partner. It brings it back to that frame, but it also allows some compassion as well to think, well, maybe it's not intentional, maybe they didn't mean that, maybe they're just coming from a place of hurt and a place of need, and there's something that I can give in this situation and not just take because I'm the triggered one. Being an absolute game changer as well. Really, really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

That's that's a really big one because I think a lot of people they build stories around who their partner is and why they do the things we they do. And that happens before actually asking any questions or getting curious. It's just making up a story about who that person is and why they do the things they do based on your own hurt and experiences. And then there's actually no real understanding happening.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

And this is something when I when you said that to me the first time, I was like, that sounds good, but it took me a while to actually wrap my head around it because I was so into my stories and so attached to my stories about he doesn't care. The truth is that he cared deeply. We just had so many unhealthy patterns, and also we'd be living out these stories and reaffirming them for a long time that it was so hard for me to see, oh, maybe he was actually not coming from a bad place, maybe he was actually meaningful, maybe he has no idea. But in my mind, the story was he knows, he just doesn't care. Of course. And then it was hard for me to switch from okay, maybe maybe he's has no idea and is coming from a good place. Because if I would ask myself, have I ever intentionally done anything to make my partner feel like shit? Like intentionally thought, I know if I do this, he'll feel like shit. No. I haven't done that.

SPEAKER_06 26:31

Who has? No one has.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Yeah, if you really ask yourself, I mean, we're not in relationships with psychopaths. If there's a very, very small percentage of people who are in relationships with someone who has been a psychopath or is a psychopath, it's just so rare. And I think it's really, really easy to just paint your partner as oh, they're narcissistic, they know what they're doing, they're being manipulative. On a subconscious level, we are all being manipulative. If we allow our triggers in our programming, these childish parts of us to run the show, which we are when we start playing into these stories, and having these really triggered arguments, so everyone's manipulating, actually. But I would I would love to know is there any specific moment in your relationship that stands out to you where that really just changed things for you?

SPEAKER_06 27:24

Assume positive intent.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:26

Oh man, at the moment, all the time. Don't spit your water out. Look, if you have a wife who's in perimenopause, breathing is annoying. Talking too early in the morning is annoying. Um, making her take a sip of coffee before she puts it down and picks it back up to sip it is annoying. Um, if I took half of that stuff personally, when she snaps at me, when she thinks I'm the most annoying person in the world, when she's like, Can't you just shut up for Christ's sake? Imagine I took that personally. And and I think, you know, I make a little bit of light of it, but um, but menopause and perimenopause are really difficult time in relationships, especially the perimenopause stage, because things start happening before either of you realize that it's happening. You just think all of a sudden you're clashing over things, and well, she's really annoyed at stuff, you know. And I mean, we've got a great relationship. And it came to a point where we kind of had to go, is everything all right with you at the moment? Like, is everything good? Like, we had to have those sorts of conversations. But but through that, what I learned is that you know, if if she's angry, if she's grumpy, if there's something wrong, I just got to be there to support her. I can't take that personally, I can't assume that she hates me all of a sudden. Because I mean, almost every marriage in the world would end at some stage during, you know, those sort of life changes for for women and for men, because men have challenges like that as well with um testosterone and everything else. It changes mood, hormone fluctuations. Um look, immediately I was almost laughing when you asked me the question because I'm like, what did I do just today? But but I think you have to. I think you have to, in all situations, you have to assume that your partner's there with their best intentions and loves you and cares about you and doesn't always get things right, and that's all okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Mm-hmm. And it just softens everything.

SPEAKER_06 29:30

It does. Yeah, it totally softens it, brings the temperature of it down. Um, sometimes, you know, she will go off at me and I'd laugh, and she goes off at me for laughing at her, and then I laugh even more, and then eventually she just snaps out of it. I'm like, You're allowed to be grumpy, it's all good. Be grumpy, throw something at me, it'll be fun. You won't hit me, and then she, you know. But you have to, like you, you've got to bring some lightness to it as well. I mean, relationships can be really tough, life can be really hard. I think you you've got to have that level of compassion for your partner and for yourself that they're not perfect and they're gonna make mistakes, and it's they're probably not doing it deliberately.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Absolutely. I think I do think it's really easy to get kind of into doom and gloom, and everything's taking absolutely everything super seriously and super personally, and it's like sometimes it's not that deep for women, like with the hormonal cycle and everything. I mean, it's a fucking roller coaster, isn't it? It's you know, sometimes we are just super emotional and get really emotional over the randomest stuff, and even we're confused, yeah, and that's also okay. It's not, it doesn't have to be a really what's the word? Don't have to take it, like yes, take it seriously and not dismiss everything, but also it's just emotions. Yeah, like yes, I'm just especially sensitive in this moment.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

And having someone who can not take that personally makes such a big difference.

SPEAKER_06 31:05

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:07

Yeah. Sometimes you just want to be left alone. You're like, just leave me alone. Like, cool, I'll go to play some PlayStation, put in my headset, have fun. Let me know when you want dinner. I'll cook dinner.

SPEAKER_03 31:16

Yeah. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:18

And sometimes dudes are really shut down and really stressed out and unable to voice what's going on for them because they don't even know what it is sometimes. They don't know where it comes from, or they don't feel comfortable talking about it just yet, because they they need to make sense of it in their own head before they can articulate it. And I mean, that's all okay as well. But then, you know, the the other partner can't be like, Well, they're not talking, they're shut down, they're always ignoring me what's going on. Why won't they speak to me? There's something wrong. You know, we've got to give each other the same level of grace.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

100%.

SPEAKER_06 31:51

Because while women have have, you know, their monthly cycle and everything, the guy's got to be there and be conscious of that and just work with it. And the same, the same's got to come back the other way when guys just aren't up for it.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah. And that happens. And I think, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I think that's I've actually had this conversation with Simon as well, is that it's instead of thinking, oh, yeah, like you said, oh, he's withdrawing, he doesn't seem his present, he's doesn't seem like he cares. And instead of taking that personally thinking, oh, it's something to do with me, instead just asking, Hey, are you okay?

SPEAKER_04 32:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

How how are you at the moment? How are things?

SPEAKER_04 32:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah. I think giving each other grace definitely looks different between men and women, for sure.

SPEAKER_06 32:40

It does.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:42

And then sometimes just allowing people to be in a bad mood. Like you don't have to fix your partner. You don't have to tend to their every whim and tend to their every mood and emotion. Like, let them just sort it out themselves. And if they need help, again, they're adults, they can ask for it. They can say, I need to talk about this, or let's talk about this. And that's like where frameworks like this come in. But trust that your partner will ask you if they need it. And if they need space, give them some space.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:10

It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

This is again such an important step. And I can see also in my own relationship what a difference it's made.

SPEAKER_06 33:18

Same.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Yeah. And just taking the pressure off each other of having to be quote unquote perfect.

SPEAKER_04 33:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah. And it's again stepping out of that childish role of I need you to meet every single one of my needs to taking a step back and like, okay, I can also take care of myself. I can also be there for you. And if there is something off, we can talk about it. And if you have a framework, then you can know, okay, I know how to talk about this.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Yeah. Yeah. So then what's difficult? Definitely. So what's step three?

SPEAKER_06 33:51

Step three is V for validate. So that's about validating your partner's experience or validating how they may feel about the conversation or how they may feel about the event that has triggered the conversation in the first place. And it might be just something as simple as, hey, it seemed like you were really angry then. I totally get why you would be. It can like be that casual and that simple. You know, all of the language that you use when you're having these conversations, it's just really simple, um, really straightforward language to use. Uh it's yeah, I guess simple is the best word to say it.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:30

Be clear, be direct, be really simple, but also let them know that maybe they look stressed about something that's happened, or maybe um they might feel uncomfortable about the conversation that you're about to have, or or you know, let them know that it's okay for them to feel whatever they need to feel about what happened, what's going to happen, what the conversation looks like, what the behavior was, what the challenge was, what the issue was, so that they feel like they're also being heard and also being seen in the conversation. That it that it's not an approach of me, me, me, me, me. It's a hey, I totally get what that must have been like for you. That must have sucked. This is what it was like for me.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yeah. And that right there, I think, is when we are when we are coming from a place of me, me, me, me, me. Like this is making someone feel seen and heard is essentially just have having the space to allow their emotions to be there. Even if you don't like them or don't understand them, or even if they're hard for you, it's like, well, that's it doesn't matter that it's hard for me. It's just they're still allowed to be there.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

Yep.

unknown 35:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

And that is where we can derail these kinds of conversations of not liking the way the other person is feeling and trying to change it or fix it or make it go away, or try to prove to them that how they're feeling is wrong.

SPEAKER_06 35:56

Yep. Yeah. I think what it really does too is it it connects both of you with some humanness. Because by the time you're at this step, you're regulated, as as well regulated as you can be. Of course, some stuff's still going to come up when you're having a hard conversation, but you know, you're not at a 10 anymore, you might be at a six, or you might be at a five when you're having the conversation. And then you're assuming positive intent. So you've already bought some compassion to the conversation. You're understanding that you know, this it's not all doom and gloom. And then you're letting them know that you understand what it's like for them as well. By the time you get to that stage, you're you're really helping them to bring down the defensiveness, which is one of the biggest barriers in having a hard conversation, is that you're going to talk and the person's gonna roll their eyes and close their ears and just nod and smile and just wait for you to finish talking. And then you get to the end of the conversation, and it's like, well, I've done the steps, but nothing happened. It really does help to bring down that defensiveness that your partner might feel because I don't think there's anything worse than somebody saying, We need to talk. Like just that alone. Oh god, even saying it, you're like, oh jeez, are we getting a divorce? Not to catastrophize, but how like it can feel that way though. Yeah. Imagine you rock up at work one day and your boss says, texts you and says, Hey, when you get in, come to my office, I need to talk to you. How are you gonna feel the whole day? And it's no different with your partner. And if you think everything is going along fine, then that we need to talk, or hey, something happened, I need to bring it up with you, or whatever you choose to say for the first words, that's probably immediately going to invoke something in your partner. So all of those steps, and especially the validate, just really helps to bring some calm back to it. Because when you're talking to their experience, it's like, okay, so they understand me here. They understand what's going on for me as well.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Yeah. I it's interesting what came up for you, what came up for me when you were saying how the I we need to talk can be a really scary thing to hear, like, oh, okay, there's something wrong. And my partner wants to talk to me about it. Like that's that's definitely a lot of pressure. And I wonder, I wonder if this is something that men especially experience. Because if my if Simon were to message me and hey, we need to talk later today, I would be a little bit nervous, but I'd also be kind of looking forward to it. Because I'm like, oh cool, he's gonna open up to me about something. And I wonder if it's like the dynamic of the relationships that changes that, because there's obviously I'm the one, or I was the one in earlier in our relationship who always wanted to talk, and he was the one that would shut down. So I wonder if that is just our dynamic. Is that for him? He feels an immense amount of responsibility. And I know that's also for men, there can be an immense amount of a feeling of immense amount of responsibility for the relationship and for the relationship surviving. But I also wonder if it's the the dynamic. Because I notice for Simon that if I say we need to talk, then I have to make sure that I say it in a time where we can actually talk. If I tell him in the morning, like, hey, can we talk this evening? I have something I want to talk to you about. He's like, What? No, tell me now. What do you mean? It's gonna ruin my day. But if he said that to me, it wouldn't ruin my day.

SPEAKER_04 39:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

So I'm yeah, it just um I think it's also just respecting and understanding how the other person functions as well. Because for me, I'm like, I'm ready to talk whenever you want at any time. I mean, not always, obviously, but it doesn't send me into a panic. Like it does for him.

SPEAKER_06 39:40

What I hear from that is I think that that's a credit to the time and effort that you've both put into your relationship as well. That that you can sit with something knowing something's coming up without the catastrophe of what's gonna happen, what's gonna say, because you've had enough time and space and practice now to have respectful conversations and to solve challenges and to talk about things that are vulnerable, and you guys have really gotten a lot better at that.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

So that's the point.

SPEAKER_06 40:08

Yeah, and and I think um I think that we need to talk, saying that to a guy usually means you've done something wrong, the relationship's over.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:20

That's kind of code language, yeah. Because if it wasn't really bad, why aren't we just talking about it now? What does it need to be announced in advance? True. Uh, and how long has she been stewing on this for? And and how much stuff is gonna be behind this conversation. Is this like 27 years of pent-up stuff that she's like, guess what? I've just found my voice, my coach has told me, and I'm gonna talk to you about everything you've ever done. Because I now have a chronological list of everything you've ever done, and we're gonna talk about it. That's what it means to a guy.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

I can understand, yeah. I you know, fair enough, fair enough. And I think it's just a testament to how effective this work is. Yes, it takes you so far, so far.

SPEAKER_04 41:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Is there anything else you feel is important to add to step three?

SPEAKER_06 41:16

No, I think we covered a lot. Yeah, I think we covered a lot, yeah. I think the clear message there is the humanness and the compassion and the understanding of what it's like for them as well. And I think it uh as soon as you're already thinking about that positive intent, I think that just becomes so much easier. And of course, much easier to receive.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

I like the simplicity of it. They have a tendency to so overcomplicate things, but validating how someone feels is actually incredibly simple. What makes it complicated is the feeling that we sometimes hold of it's not okay that they feel that way. And if they feel that way, I can't be okay.

SPEAKER_04 41:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Or if they feel that way, it's against me, it's my fault. Or it means I'm a bad person. And it's again all those stories coming in.

SPEAKER_06 42:04

Stories around it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Such I mean, I feel like we could do a podcast interview every single one of these steps. I'm like holding myself back.

SPEAKER_06 42:16

We totally could.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

But what's what's then step four?

SPEAKER_06 42:21

So step four is E for express your needs. So this is where you just talk really clearly with your partner without any mind games, without any guessing, without any pretending that they can read your mind because they should know. You just really clearly tell them what you actually need. What is it that you need from them? What does the conversation need to be about? What's happened that you need clarity on, or you need understanding on, or what are they, what are they not doing, or what do you feel like you would like them to do to make your relationship stronger, to make your life easier, whatever else, whatever the conversation is about. But just letting your partner know, again, really clearly, uh, because there's nothing worse than having to guess and like do the Chinese whispers thing, like she's saying this, but I'm not sure if she means that. And it's like, here's the bush, and she's like beating all the way around it, and can't you just say that bit? Or him, whichever way the conversation is going. Um, but to let them know what you need from them. Uh, men in particular are really good fixers. Like, we want to fix everything. And if you just tell me what I need to fix, then I can really easily and comfortably do that. But if I have to kind of guess, because there's a bit of a facade about the stuff that you need, I think I've kind of got it, but I'm not really sure. And I'm probably gonna get this wrong three more times before I actually do it. It makes it a lot harder. So clear, concise, this is what I need.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 43:48

Makes life really, really easy.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 43:52

It doesn't mean you'll get sorry, it doesn't mean you'll get it, but it's a starting point. It's a starting point for understanding where you're at.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

And you know what, maybe I'm gonna ask that question once we've gotten through the five steps, because there's a bunch of what-ifs that I'm sure people might be thinking with these steps. And I'm sure you've heard all of them before. So, but we'll we'll address them after the five steps so we don't like get sidetracked. But I think this is for me personally, like I like I said earlier, getting really direct and being able to also get clear for yourself what is it that you that I actually need. Because sometimes we're not even sure, we just feel upset. And I think as well, especially if you feel like you need to take space, when you take space, what is that? That's the is that step one regulate. Stephen regulate. Yeah, I think in that space it's really good time to try and understand, well, what do I actually need right now? What am I looking for in this?

SPEAKER_04 44:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Because I think a lot of the time, I personally at least I wasn't actually sure of what I actually needed. And then also understanding what do I need for myself, and then what do I actually need for my partner? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:03

Yep. And and make it super clear, like I said, you know, examples might be that um, you know, I feel like you shut down when you're angry, and when you do, I feel like it's my fault. And you don't have to tell me that uh, you know, everything about what's wrong, but just let me know if there's something that I've done that I can help with. Really simple stuff. Or um an example from a conversation that I've had recently with somebody. We weren't coaching at the time, but you know, talking to them about intimacy challenges with their partner. They were like, you know what, when the deed's done, they just roll over and like go to sleep. And I just love to cuddle for five minutes. It's like cool. Have you ever let them know that? That that's important to you? And they're like, oh, well, they should know. It's like clearly they don't. It can be that simple of a request, right? Can we cuddle for five minutes after intimacy? Like, how big a problem does that fix?

SPEAKER_00 45:58

It's it is interesting how because I know you've probably asked me this question before as well. It's like, have you ever actually just said that, asked that? But just and also ask that in a really clear, direct way. Not in a kind of in a in passing, kind of slipping it in to a conversation in passing, trying to like hide it in there to try and not cause conflict. Not kind of beating, like you said, beating around the bush in a way, saying what it is that you want, but just literally in one sentence saying, Can I would like this or I need this?

SPEAKER_06 46:31

Yeah. Yeah. Or it's the passive aggressive asking for it, which is uh, oh, I guess you got what you want, you're just gonna go to sleep now.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 46:39

And then the part is going, Oh, here we go again.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

I like that. Yeah. I think this one's yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:51

That person solved that problem too, which was great. Had the conversation. And their partner just didn't know. They'd never done it before, they just didn't know. And now it's like fixed. And then people are like, what else could I fix if I just asked for it?

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Oh, it's just clear in my communication.

unknown 47:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 47:11

How weird is this? And they just went, okay. And then it goes back to, you know, what we talked about right at the start, which is some of the fears that people build up in their head about what their partner might do or say if they simply asked.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Yeah. Yeah, because it's again, it's going towards that vulnerability when you actually ask what it is that you want and just be really direct, you're being very vulnerable.

SPEAKER_06 47:32

Yeah. Very vulnerable. It's it can be terrifying, it can be really, really hard, no matter how long you've been together. It can be really hard.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Yeah. And so is there anything that from your experience that is also really important to keep in mind with this step that is standing out to you?

SPEAKER_06 47:51

With expressing your need?

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 47:53

Definitely be really clear.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 47:56

It can't be ambiguous. It's got to be really clear and really simple, with as much detail as possible. And don't assume that they're just going to say, okay, cool. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

That's actually something I wanted to come to at the end.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah. Is what happens if the response isn't what you want it to be, which we're going to come to. Once we go through step five.

SPEAKER_06 48:22

Well, it's a nice step, it's a nice segue into step five, actually. Because step five is to end negotiate the outcome. So this is where you actually talk about what your partner needs, what you need, what it was like for you, what the experience was like for you, what would make it better, easier, happier, less friction, supportive, whatever the conversation is, and then come up with something that works for both of you. And negotiating is a tough thing to do because often people go into a conversation thinking that, but if I just express my need and ask for it, like my really cool coach told me to, then they have to do it because I said it in the right method. So now they have to do it. It's part of the structure. You can't say no. Well, actually, they can. And there's two people in relationships, and both people need to be heard and loved and met and seen and understood. So as an adult, you just don't always get what you want. Even if you think it's right. You just don't always get what you want. So the art of negotiating with your partner is super important. Because you can get all the way through those steps and then ask for something that's in your partner's eyes completely unreasonable, and they're just going to go, No. I hear you and I see you and I get it. Totally understand why, but no, I'm not doing that. It's not necessarily because they're a bad person or because they're not invested in the relationship. But both people have needs and boundaries and wants and desires, and it's tough. You've got to learn to negotiate. You've got to learn to, you know, decide is this the hill that we're going to kill our relationship on or not? Or can we just negotiate? Can I give up this time and not give up next time? Or can we can we do a one-for-one? Or can we, you know, neither of us get what we want? Like, how do we just move forward? Maybe we just agree to disagree and that's it. But at least we understand each other better now because we had the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

I think that's something that often it can, it's really it can be really hard, I think, as well, if especially when you're new to practicing these kinds of conversations, is that it can feel really devastating.

SPEAKER_04 50:39

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 50:40

And this is actually, there's two things that I wanted to, I wanted to approach like what happens if shit hits the fan and you you tried your hardest to have a healthy conversation, but it just it doesn't go as planned. I want to talk about that. And I also want to talk about potentially an elephant in the room for some people is when I think this is probably hard to answer without really talking to those individual people, but when to know, when their no is a sign or a message for you that, okay, then maybe this relationship isn't for me. Maybe what they need and what I need are so different that we can't have a fulfilling relationship together. And it doesn't make them a bad person, it doesn't make me a bad person for needing these things, it just makes us not the right people for each other.

SPEAKER_04 51:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

Because I think they're, especially for people who tend to make themselves small in relationships and take on the brunt of the burden of making everything better, then it might be, oh, I gotta know, so I gotta learn how to live with that. So you don't have to if it really goes against your values.

SPEAKER_06 51:52

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:56

That's such a big question, too. It's basically like the what do I accept and what do I not accept? What are the deal breakers in my relationship? Yeah. And I think um that's got to lean back onto your values. What are the things that are really important to you? And what's the dynamic of your relationship? And does that fit with your beliefs? Does it fit with your future plans? Does that fit with what you want? I mean, you know, at a very basic level, imagine you you get somewhat through your relationship and you say to your partner, maybe it's time for us to have kids. And they're like, I don't ever want kids. And you're like, I really want kids. I mean, that's that's probably going to be a deal breaker. So so I think when it comes to your overall values in your relationship, when it comes to the beliefs, when it comes to the life direction and lifestyle, you have to be in sync with those bigger decisions.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:46

So I think it's really clear when it comes to big stuff, when it comes to the smaller stuff, it can be a little bit harder with the negotiating and understanding, well, how much is too much? How much do I give and how much do I take? And I think it's important just to know that you shouldn't always be the one giving up. When it comes to negotiating, you should, if you're the person who is always giving up, and if you feel like you're keeping the peace and not really getting what you want at all, then it's a consideration for you to say, does this person care about my well-being? Are they on the same path as me? Is this what I'm looking for? Am I having to adjust who I am to fit in with this person and keep the peace? And if I am, am I okay with that? And if you're not, then there's a conversation to have about that, about that exactly. I mean, that becomes your need. Hey, I feel like whenever we have these conversations, that I'm always the one who's relenting, and you're always the one who's, you know, saying no, denying me, telling me I'm crazy, whatever it is. And that becomes one of your problems in your relationship that you both need to work on.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 54:00

And I think sometimes just voicing that and bringing that to it to attention can be really powerful. Sometimes in a relationship, there's um that there's topics where one person's a natural leader. For example, in my relationship, um, Kate's very, very good at the um social life stuff, keeping up with our calendar, organizing friends, family events, because I mean I'd be a hermit if I could more than likely. I really like my my little comfortable home. And and I love people, don't get me wrong. But I really like my quiet time as well. I do a lot of coaching, I do a lot of sessions, I do a lot of caretaking for other people in terms of help and support and love and compassion. And sometimes I just want my own time. And she's like, no, we're going out this weekend. So so in those spaces, I will always relent, even if I absolutely don't want to go, I'm gonna go. Because that's that's her jam, that's her thing, and I know that it's good for me, um, especially if I've had a really big week. But then, for example, when it comes to stuff like finances, I'm much more financially minded, and she's not, she doesn't care. She just wants to know that there's money in the bank account and we can do what we want to do when we want to do it. So when it comes to those sorts of conversations, you know, if if I say the the really bad B-word like we're on a budget, she'll be like, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? But but but I mean she might not be happy with it, but she trusts my judgment in that area. So she will give up things, she will relent things in that space because she knows that you know we've both got positive intentions for each other. So if I'm saying no, there's a reason why. And sometimes she'll ask and sometimes she won't. Sometimes I'll be like, oh, do we have to go to that? She's like, Yes, we haven't seen her for ages. I'm like, oh, okay. And then you do that thing where you secretly hope people cancel. We all do that. We all do that, don't we? So just make having out of myself. Perfect. Um, so yeah, so I mean, there's a lot of complexity when it comes to those negotiations and how you decide in your own relationship whether or not something is enough or too much. I think it's a really personal thing, but um, I'm not even sure I really gave you an answer, but but I think that if you're clashing with your values consistently, if your life doesn't seem to be on the same path, if there's those big ticket items that are non-negotiable for you that you're not getting anywhere on, then you've got to have the conversation about compatibility. And then I think the smaller things you just need to work with.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

Mm-hmm. And I think because I I have these conversations as well with with some of my clients too, where when the conversation of relationships come up, and maybe there's some things that they're really struggling with. And then there's this fear of like, oh no, if I talk about this, I'm gonna be told I need to leave my relationship. And firstly, no one should be telling you what you should do with your relationship. I mean, again, we're talking about normal dysfunctional relationships where yeah, you might be experiencing a lot of emotional pain, but this is not getting into domestic abuse and abuse of like isolating you from friends, financial abuse, things like that. We're not talking about that. We're talking about the average fucked up relationship. So no one can tell you if you should leave or not. And I think, especially today, people are really quick to say, red flag, leave, ditch them. You have a lot of red flags yourself. Sorry. We all do. And your partner could say the exact same thing about you. Like, oh, red flag, I should just go. And we also miss so much healing and growth when we just dip because the person isn't the way we want them to be, or because they're displaying some behaviors that are maybe hurtful. And we get to avoid having these kinds of hard conversations if we just ditch a relationship and keep looking for the perfect person that doesn't trigger us and is really nice and is always attentive. So we don't have to have hard conversations. We don't have to feel deeply triggered and hurt by that person. And this is where understanding whether the relationship is for you or not, you can't do that until you start having hard conversations. If you're not doing the hard conversations, you can't know. Because you don't really know your partner either. You really get to know them deeply when you start having these kinds of conversations. And they also get to know you a lot better. Yes. And then you get to work through the really hard stuff. And I think if you are, despite all these conversations, if you are still feeling small in the relationship or like you can't, there's not space for you to be who you are in your relationship, then it's probably an indication that maybe you're not compatible. If you have to give up who you are to fit in with them, then it's a pretty good indication. But just because you have conflict and stuff might not be very good right now, that doesn't mean that the relationship isn't going to work. So you've got to have the hard conversations. And if you keep, and if you have all the hard conversations, a lot of them, and things haven't really changed, or you're still feeling the same way you they same way that you did, then that might be a time to start considering, okay, this is probably a compatibility issue and not necessarily something we can work through together.

SPEAKER_06 59:28

Absolutely agree. And and I'd really support the fact too that the people who genuinely love each other who are just challenged because of conflict and arguing and bickering and whatever else and differing needs, like stay together and just work through it. Because that is going to happen with absolutely everybody. There's no perfect relationship, there's no ideal partner. And if you find somebody who is just an absolute perfect match in every way, I guarantee they're shutting down a lot of the stuff that they actually want and need to be able to try to accommodate everything for you perfectly. Because healthy relationships are the ones where you do bicker and you do argue and you get on each other's nerves. Because life's a long time, and relationships are a long time when you stick to them. And just the natural phases that you're going to go through, getting older and relocations, and having children, and family members passing away, and parents passing away, and you know, travel for work and you know, money stress and everything else that happens that that the uh the honeymoon phase finishes, and all of a sudden you've got the the tired phase and the kid phase, and eventually you get the roommate phase where it's like, you know, there's no intimacy, and who is this person? And we feel distant and cold, and we've stopped with our excitement in our relationship. Like all of that stuff is gonna happen, and that's all gonna happen in every relationship, no matter how good it seems. So the strength of a relationship really does come down to how well you can communicate with each other and and and manage conflict and more importantly, repair conflict when it does happen because it's inevitable, it's got to happen, and it's really healthy. Absolutely. I would implore people to stick with it as much as possible because there's been times in our relationship where I've thought, wow, this is really bad. I don't know how this is gonna go. But you have to have those hard conversations, and you know, now we're 25 years together.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

Yeah, it's incredible, really. And I can also just attest to what you're saying is I've also I've shared on this podcast many times, but we've also had moments in our relationship where it's like, man, I don't know how we can get through this. I mean, it feels like we've been stuck in this for so long.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

Yeah. And really what changed it is learning this stuff that we've just talked about.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:51

Yeah, I think everybody, you know, all relationships I've spoken to people about, everybody thinks that at some point. Is this too much? Are they gonna change? Are they gonna do some work on themselves? Are we gonna be able to fix this? We're always fighting, you know, how are we gonna manage through that? I think everybody thinks that at some stage in their relationship. Because relationships will test you in in every way. But they're also the most rewarding thing that you can do.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

100%. I back that whole heart. I really feel that. It really, really is.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:26

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

Yeah. I think I've I've said this in an I don't know if I've just said this, my heart, my husband and I have just talked to each other about this, or I've also, or if I've also said it in on this podcast before, but without a doubt, I am the person that I am today because of my relationship.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

And I love who I am today.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:47

And despite all the messy parts of our relationship, like those things were necessary for us to become who we are today, for me to become who I am today. And I couldn't have done that alone. I needed someone to trigger the absolute shit out of me to get me to wake up and start working on these things.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:07

Yeah, it brings out the best in people.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

Absolutely. Brings out the absolute worst so that you can work on that stuff, so you can bring out the absolute best. And when you're alone, when you're single, it's so easy to make a very comfortable life for yourself.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:22

Isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:25

Isn't it? You make a comfortable life and then you start to tell yourself the story that this is better anyway because you don't have to put up with someone. And you know, you see a lot of that going around at the moment with conversation. But I mean, it's it's it's you can put it into measurable outcomes as well. There's yes, the way we feel and the love that we have and the support and and all that really, really great stuff, the growth, the challenge. But the fact is that married couples live longer. It's it's just that simple. Yeah, that there's metrics that you can look at. They they um generally say that they have better levels of happiness into later years of their life and more fulfillment in their life as well. It's just a huge amount of evidence that says that relationships uh are positive all the way through all stages.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

Yeah, yeah, because we need connection.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:16

I think the metrics back everything up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:18

For sure we do.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:19

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:20

Yeah, and real connection.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

Exactly. And real connection happens again through these hard conversations.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:26

Of course. Of course. It's a beautiful circle. I think that's why they made wedding rings, because all of that's a beautiful circle.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

Yeah. I think you those statistics that talk of these married couples that live longer and generally experience more fulfillment and fulfillment and satisfaction, there is a high chance that they are able to do the things that we've just talked about.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:53

Yep. I would totally agree with that. They would have had to at some stage.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

Absolutely. Yeah. And so is there anything in all your experience and working with people in this area, is there anything that we haven't addressed that you think that's something people might need to hear?

SPEAKER_06 1:05:15

In terms of conflict?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

Yeah, in terms of this topic that we've been discussing.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:20

Um I think that the more that you can get your partner on board to have these types of conversations, the better. So if one partner is kind of equipped with an idea of how it's going to go and the other person's a little bit blindsided because they all of a sudden there's this new framework that someone's using. I think letting your partner in on it and exploring this together is the best way that you can do it. And then just setting up some basic rules around the way you do go through the conversation in terms of allowing somebody to talk and listen before you butt in without rolling your eyes, give them, you know, a couple of minutes to say what they need to. Say, accept that you understand it, you know, reflect back what you've heard and what you understand from what they've just said. I think all of those things become really powerful because there's the framework, which is great. But if you're not, if you're not both singing the same song, um, the song becomes very disjointed. So get your partner on board, talk to them about hey, I feel like you know, we just always blow up at each other, and there's this thing that I want to try, and this is what it is, and this is what it looks like, and get their buy-in as much as possible, it'll make it so much smoother, and then practice and do it and get better at it, and just watch your relationship change and grow as you you both do in your skills at having conversations because I think it goes so far beyond what people say is you've got to communicate better. I think so many people say that, but there's nothing behind that, there's no tools. It's like you have to communicate better. It's like, okay, so do I have to say it louder? Do I have to say it more? Do it, like, what does that mean? And I think bringing it back to something like this actually gives you a tool that you can use beyond the you've got to communicate better, and then takes it much further than just communication.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

That's a really good point because it also changed a lot for me, too, is when I actually said to my partner, hey, let's both learn how to do this so that we're both on the same page of how this works. And also when we can acknowledge when we fucked up. Because, like, oh, because we actually weren't trying to listen to each other at all, and we didn't even do the regulation part. We just skipped trying to share our needs. Like, skipped all the points, like, well, these are my needs, you need to listen to them, and I don't give a shit about yours, and shut up because mine are more important. Of course. Yeah. It's like, okay, we we really skipped quite a few of the really important steps there. So that makes sense that this turned out the way that it did.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:49

Absolutely. And then I hear exactly what I wanted to hear from that, which is it then becomes you two versus the problem. Because now you're both laughing about the fact that you stuffed up a hard conversation in the first place. And it's just bringing you together to have it properly.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

Exactly. Exactly. And also wanted to ask, you have a free program that actually runs people through this. Do you want to share, quickly share about that? So that people, if people want to, they can get they can get access to it.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:17

Yeah. So I've got a program called uh Reset Your Relationship in 28 Days. So that's for people who are in relationships who feel like that they've gone a bit off the rails or gone a bit off track and they want to sort of do a bit of a reset and bring it back to loving and caring in a secure relationship. So I've got a free online course. Um, so I hope you like looking at my face because you're gonna have to look at it for a while as you go through it. Uh, but it's four modules to help you manage conflict, to help you understand some of the patterns in your relationship and then communicate and manage your way through them together. And this is one of the modules that's in there, completely free with no strings attached. It's in my Facebook group called Reset Your Relationship in 28 Days. Uh, it's jump in there, join the group, uh, reach out to me, and you can get a free download of this program, completely separate to Facebook. So it's on its own platform. Work through it at your own um pace, and of course, bring your partner in on it as well. It'll uh it'll completely change your relationship. I think 875 people so far have downloaded that program. Wow. Yeah, incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

That's incredible. And it is a really effective program too. So I'll leave the link for that in the show notes. People want to check that out. If someone by chance doesn't have Facebook, because I know some people who are listening to this potentially don't have Facebook, how might they be able to get access to it if that's the case?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:41

Yeah, so what I'll do is I'll I'll leave you the link for my landing page as well. They can bypass the whole Facebook thing. If they don't want any ongoing support in terms of some lives and some other content and information I'd put in there to support it, they can just go straight into the program and have nothing to do with it. And I'll leave that link for you as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

That's awesome. Thank you so much, Adam. That's been an absolutely amazing conversation as always.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:03

Always is. Love coming on. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:06

What an incredible conversation. It is always so amazing to have Adam on the show. If you gain value from this conversation, make sure you hit like and subscribe. Leave a five-star review. Don't forget to drop your thoughts. What stood out to you the most? What resonated with you the most? I'd love to hear in the comments or in a written review, depending on what platform you're on. And if you want more support with what we've talked about in this episode, don't forget to click the link in the show notes to get access to Adam's free program. Thanks so much for hanging out. I'll see you next week for the next episode of Beyond Skin Picking and Hair Pulling.